The Hellbender Chronicles

Well Jim, I'm gonna play "devils advocate" here.
After personally riding the existing "ATV" trail, I understand it's NO WONDER those poor riders are "demanding" a new trail! That "ATV Trail", is completely and absolutely unusable by any SANE ATV rider.
Laying out an ATV trail isn't brain surgery.... BUT it seems that the ANF in all their "outdoor wisdom" ... may have hired a "Brain Surgeon" to lay the (totally useless) ATV trail out! Either that, or perhaps the person(s) laying out the trail, did so by looking at a map and drawing the original "loop" without ever going into the woods.
For those who have not had the unique experience of riding, or more accurately, STUMBLING along the trail, let me accurately describe it. It's a ten mile "loop" of the most jag-ed, irregular, DANGEROUS, sharp, loose, rocks that you could encounter. The ANF is "recommending" it as an "expert" ATV trail. The only break from the constant jag-ed, bumpy, rugged rocks are flooded, slimy mud holes, and a few sections that share forest roads. There are no sections of good, hard-packed, relatively flat, RIDABLE trail.
What's even more amazing than the incredibly bad, and shameful condition of the trail, is the fact that the ANF doesn't require, or at the very least, warn or recommend the wearing of helmets or other protective gear.
I'm told by local ATV'ers that anyone who has ridden it has only done it once, or even, at most, just ridden a partial section of the trail.
It's now wonder why the ANF is changing the location of most of the original trail, besides offering the ATV'ers a "Bonus" of substantially more trail!
Jim, I have to respectively disagree with you (or maybe we don't?) .... But after actually RIDDING the ten miles of the totally useless "ATV" Trail, I think the Forestry OWES the riders a new, and better trail! This time perhaps instead of hiring a "Brain Surgeon" to lay the trail out, maybe they can consult a fisherman, or shoe salesman!

Stony!

Well, Stony, I don't disagree with you about the conditions of the trail and I think we'd mostly agree here (although assuming ATV riders have some right to a super trail even where the existing trail lies would be wrong). Although I would point out that the conditions are partially the result of its use by ATVs which has eroded soils leaving large rocks exposed in many places - making it pure hell (at least for us non-motorized bicyclists). On the whole I'd say that the trail is in total disrepair and seriously unmaintained. A fair amount of downed wood has been down for some time based on the tracks going around it in many places. There were numerous mud holes despite the warm dry conditions currently. And there was definitely some extensive erosion coming from that trail over the years.

So what do ATVers deserve to be done with that trail? When faced with similar problems over Rocky Gap the FS did the sensible thing - the trail was reconstructed on the same location. Replacing 10 miles of poorly designed and maintained "expert" trail with 10 miles of brand new trail at a new location isn't the answer. Reconstructing the existing trail in its existing location would make more sense if you do anything at all. And changing the trail "skill level" could be significant because you'd be creating an off-road highway similar to the Timberline ATV trail which is a mess and a beacon for irresponsible riders.

Of course, the ATV trail proposal isn't about repairing the existing trail, its about building 44 new miles and substituting a basic to moderate skill level trail for the existing one by building 11 miles of new trail. That means there will be far greater use to the existing "relocated" trail, more illegal riding off of the trail (its new location on the ridge bottom will play into that - the existing location helps to limit that unlike along other trails in the Allegheny), and more expansive impacts on the trail. It also means that the impacts will be exported to the surrounding forest areas in full.

I'll tell you what impression I came home with. The western portion of the existing trail is in an otherwise unroaded area with no access for timber companies or oil & gas corporations. The eastern portion is accessible via logging roads. The view from the trail along the western portion was beautiful. It had more of a beech/hemlock component, it was (excluding the trail of course) relatively undisturbed, and it was just plain scenic. Along the eastern part of the loop it was disgusting. You go through logging areas and along logging roads. Some sections I remember the soil compaction from logging being so bad that ATVs could be riding off trail and you wouldn't know it. Just another reminder of how the Forest Service's mismanagement is hurting forest conditions.

It is painfully obvious in any case that the Forest Service needs to establish that they can properly rebuild and maintain their existing trails before we seriously consider letting them build new ones.

i can only say its about time they added more miles of trail! do you know how long it's been talked about at meetings in harrisburg and dcnr.
our club in the last 5-10yrs has funded these trails with over 350,000. in revenue. do you know one in every 30 people owns a quad in pa with only a 160 miles of trails. seems pretty unfair to the atv people. they do pay registration fee's and the tax from the fuel also goes into an account. it's about time all the clubs get together and stand up for there rights. you talk about the hiking/bike trail not being opened. instead of bitching about it, get together with other bikers and hikers and do a trail clean up. we do clean ups on the bike and atv trails with the forestry. also would like to 1st and 2nd a $30. fee for all you non motorized bikes and hikers to use the anf area. go ahead and bitch about that. we already have been paying it for two years. later

All of your arguments have some merit.
But please let me interject one comment.
A few of the people that use an ATV are disabled and use an ATV as thier legs.To neglect them areas to enjoy the outdoors is a crime.Also to
deney them them the right to use an ATV to get into the "woods" to hunt is also a crime, so please keep this in mind when you are arguing over this issue.

Steve,

We have been trying to get the hiking trails open. Here's the problem, though. The small stuff is no problem. Where we run into trouble is removing whole trees that have fallen across hiking trails.

The Forest Service says we must use their chainsaws to remove trees from the trails. OK, fine...However, in order to use their chainsaws, we have to take a course to be certified, even if you know how to use a chainsaw properly, which I do. So we have been waiting on the Forest Service for almost a year to set up this course so we can get certified.

As for more miles of trail...NOT until they have adequate enforcement measures in place, which they clearly do not. Interestingly enough, the Intensive Use Area where the proposed expansion of the Willow Creek trail is, is supposed to have a maximum of 25 miles of trail. Currently, there is 18 miles and the Forest Service wants an additional 44 miles. This is not even keeping with their own guidelines.

Why should non-motorized bikers and hikers pay fees similar to ATV's? I'd love to see a comparative analysis of soil erosion between those activities. It's just a simple fact that ATV trails require much more maintenance.

Finally, the Allegheny is not a playground for ATV's. The DCNR has placed a moratorium on ATV trail construction on state forest lands because, according to the DCNR, there is an adequate supply on private lands. Considering the state forest system is four times larger than the Allegheny, it only seems reasonable that there should be no new trails in the Allegheny.

Want more trails...get together and build them on private land. Taxpayers should not be subsidizing it.

Well Steve,

A. There is an extensive volunteer network which helps to maintain the hiking trails in the ANF. It is easy to find.

B. Using your logic, by my estimates, 1 in 5 Pennsylvanians own an SUV, with exactly zero miles of public off-road trails. Maybe Tahoes and ATVs could share the same trails. Yea. Watch out over that next rise.

Rj

Although I fully agree that therre are those among the ATV crowd that may not give 2 cents what you are trying to do, I'd just like to say that for every bad apple out there, there are many that are responsible, and DO care about treading lightly. I believe that much of the negative attitudes are caused by groups like yours that are totally ignorant of the good merits the sport of ATV riding has as a family sport, and who refuse to listen to any view that differs from their own. That is closed minded ignorance. ATV riding CAN co-exist, and can be managed with positive results. The economic benefits can be substantial. All you have to do is look to your neighbors to the south in West Virginia to see the absolute financial windfall that the Hatfield McCoy trail system has brought the state and region. The ATV enthusiasts in PA DESERVE better treatment, and to be fairly judged, not sensationalized reporting of what is a small minority of the total numbers of riders. Get your facts right...

Gary,

ATVs never tread lightly. There is no such thing as a vehicle with that kind of power and weight treading lightly. The entire problems with ATVs is rooted in the fac that they are disruptive of other users (camperes, hikers, hunters, etc..) and other uses (wildlife habtiat, watershed protection, recreation, etc...). And ATV riders are visible (hard to miss that trailer full of mud-caked ATVs) and vocal but they are a distinct minority of recreation users and the public surveys show this to be true. But they cause the greatest amount of disruption and public safety concerns.

You allege that our "facts" are not right. What specific facts are you talking about? Our entire post is based on a documented record and is also backed up by extensive experience in the Allegheny National Forest. We have head deaths, major injuries, hit and run incidents, dui incidents, etc.. A bad apple on an ATV can do things that a "bad apple" on cross country skis could never dream of. And even the "good" ATV users who don't intend to harm others in fact do disrupt the recreational pursuits of others with their noise, intrusive trails, contributions towards sedimentation in streams, disruption to wildlife, and degradation of wildlife habitat.

I'm amazed by the people who think they have a "right" to take their ATV's into a quiet area to hunt or make up for age or infirmity. Your "rights" destroy the peace & serenity of the woods for everyone else.

Mountain bikers too are welcome to go to private land, rather than running hikers off trails.

What is it with you people anyway that you can't do anything without it being at high speed? It's the forests, not short-attention span entertainment for you. Get off your bikes & ATV's and try walking, you will see, hear & smell nature. If you can't do that, then stay home and watch Springer or wrestling, or go to your local bar and get a snootful and tell tall tales about what a great outdoorsman/woman you are.

Keep your toys in the cluttered yards of your mobile homes and cheap suburban tract homes.

I understand this is an old thread but am very dissapointed as to the negative comments about ATV Use in the ANF, Does anyone have any Idea how much money is brought into the Commonwealth thru the use of ATV's? each year we lose more tourist dollars to other states like West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Utah, Oregon, and the likes, these people even go to ride in Canada because of the trails and no hassel from the local officials. I personally will be taking for the 3rd time a group of 34 riders to West Virginia this coming spring to enjoy the outdoors and peace and quiet riding time with no hassel just a good ole' time, Do the math! Average money spent is $300.00 a piece for permits, lodging , Food and Fuel if I'm not mistaken that's $10,200.00 for the weekend! not to shabby by any means to one small town. The people in these small towns love to have us, they make us feel very welcome mud and all, Big Signs everywhere read, ATV Riders Welcome, many locals smile and say where there's mud theres money and they have capitalized on this. The Local police even welcome you just obey the traffic laws and theres never a problem, the motorists in these towns stop and wait for your group to go ahead because they don't want to see you get split up, we ride to the resturants, gas stations,Grocery Stores,Lodging and the such, I have even seen older women on these ATV's heading for the store because there more economical to run and easier to park, I am curious as to what part of this economic picture you don't understand !!!! surley your aren't trying to say that Automobiles and trucks and heavey equipment are much better on our ecologic system now would you? If your looking at bad apples spoiling the barrel you must put blinders on when you drive on our nations highways, Every day when my wife or children leave to go to work or the store I worry about the inconsiderate drivers causing accidents, trust me look at the actual Statistic from the CPSC and the NEISS Council Automobiles do more damage and have killed more people in one year than ATV's have done since there beginning !! this is fact not falasy, the reports that everyone see are only a part of the picture and are published by the do gooders in our country. I will continue to fight for our right to enjoy the outdoors as the next person does, weather it be by foot or motorized vehicle we all have a right to be there and since I'm Handicapped this is my only means of enjoying the outdoors anymore !! Thank God for ATV's!!

Thanks for signing in, . Now you can comment. (sign out)

(If you haven't left a comment here before, you may need to be approved by the site owner before your comment will appear. Until then, it won't appear on the entry. Thanks for waiting.)

URL:
Remember me? YesNo

Comments: